WD phono/PSU III clone
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
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#376
No you're pretty much all there, zeners are spec.d at so many volts, so that's it breakdown voltage and what it will hold down to. All you got to remember is the voltage must be normally higher without it, also it must be fed via a resistor which will cause the voltage drop and limit the current.
Best place to put it is in parallel with the V1 stage supply cap, is that called C12/whatever?
The other thing you need to be sure of is its power rating because of course the current it sinks is multiplied by the volts drop = Watts.
For example I'm using 5W 100V + 5W 150V in series; that limits the current sink to 30mA max. because more than that and the 150V one will go 'pop'...
Could of course be 5 x 50V is series and so on
If the supplied voltage drops below the zener's it will stop conducting and it would just be like it wasn't there at all. Like where you were before without it.
What you need to do then is find out what is the supply volts for V1 stage, after the 10k resistor wot you just put in then subtract say 10V from that, then that's the total zeners' voltages you need to add up to that. Then it's simply a question of finding X number of them to make it up.
Say if it had to be 230V, could be 2 x 100V zeners + a 30V one, if 215, 2 hundreds and a 15, and like that.
Hope that makes sense
Er, the problem with regulating the whole supply is the power rating heat dissipation thing. Zeners can't do it on their own unless it's low voltage and quite low current, so you start getting into power supply regulators that use a zener as a reference but then a power transistor or something that actually provides the output. Starts getting complicated ~ I found it was sufficient to stabilize V1 stage, which stops the remainder amplifying its fluctuations. That was/is good enough.
Best place to put it is in parallel with the V1 stage supply cap, is that called C12/whatever?
The other thing you need to be sure of is its power rating because of course the current it sinks is multiplied by the volts drop = Watts.
For example I'm using 5W 100V + 5W 150V in series; that limits the current sink to 30mA max. because more than that and the 150V one will go 'pop'...
Could of course be 5 x 50V is series and so on
If the supplied voltage drops below the zener's it will stop conducting and it would just be like it wasn't there at all. Like where you were before without it.
What you need to do then is find out what is the supply volts for V1 stage, after the 10k resistor wot you just put in then subtract say 10V from that, then that's the total zeners' voltages you need to add up to that. Then it's simply a question of finding X number of them to make it up.
Say if it had to be 230V, could be 2 x 100V zeners + a 30V one, if 215, 2 hundreds and a 15, and like that.
Hope that makes sense
Er, the problem with regulating the whole supply is the power rating heat dissipation thing. Zeners can't do it on their own unless it's low voltage and quite low current, so you start getting into power supply regulators that use a zener as a reference but then a power transistor or something that actually provides the output. Starts getting complicated ~ I found it was sufficient to stabilize V1 stage, which stops the remainder amplifying its fluctuations. That was/is good enough.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#377
Yep, that all makes sense
You say they need to be fed by a resistor.
If i put the diodes in parallel with c12/13, will the 10k resistor i added be the resistor that feeds the diodes?
Hmm, that doesnt make much sense, let me try again.
I added the 10k resistor creating another RC filter. If i put the diodes parallel with the RC filters cap will the same resistor do its job for the RC filter and the diode shunt regulator?
Or, do the diodes need there own seperate resistor?
You say they need to be fed by a resistor.
If i put the diodes in parallel with c12/13, will the 10k resistor i added be the resistor that feeds the diodes?
Hmm, that doesnt make much sense, let me try again.
I added the 10k resistor creating another RC filter. If i put the diodes parallel with the RC filters cap will the same resistor do its job for the RC filter and the diode shunt regulator?
Or, do the diodes need there own seperate resistor?
#378
No, it will work find after the 10k resistor.
You can find the current through the zener.
If the original supply provides (say 250v) and the zener voltage is 230v and the load resistor feeding the zener is 10k, then there will be 250v on one side of the 10k, and 230v on the other, so there is 20v across the 10k. Ohms law tells us that he current through the resistor will be 2ma. The first stage of the phono draws about 0.5ma (I think), so the two triodes will draw 1ma (adjust this if the 0.5ma is wrong) so of the 2ma thats passing the resistor 1ma is going through the valves, so the remaining 1ma is going through the zener. So its dissapating 230v * 1ma or 0.23W.
The other side of this is that the current through the load (Il) + the current (Iz) through the zener and the difference between the zener voltage (Vz) and the supply voltage (Vs) lets you set the size of the load resistor.
R = ( Vs - Vz ) / ( Il + Iz )
You can find the current through the zener.
If the original supply provides (say 250v) and the zener voltage is 230v and the load resistor feeding the zener is 10k, then there will be 250v on one side of the 10k, and 230v on the other, so there is 20v across the 10k. Ohms law tells us that he current through the resistor will be 2ma. The first stage of the phono draws about 0.5ma (I think), so the two triodes will draw 1ma (adjust this if the 0.5ma is wrong) so of the 2ma thats passing the resistor 1ma is going through the valves, so the remaining 1ma is going through the zener. So its dissapating 230v * 1ma or 0.23W.
The other side of this is that the current through the load (Il) + the current (Iz) through the zener and the difference between the zener voltage (Vz) and the supply voltage (Vs) lets you set the size of the load resistor.
R = ( Vs - Vz ) / ( Il + Iz )
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
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- Old Hand
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:32 pm
- Location: sheffield
#380
how much noise do zeners make ? compared to say, resistors ?
#381
Much more, lower voltage (<6v) zeners are quieter. The noise can be reduced by bipassing them with caps, but because of their low impedance the caps need to be 10uf and above.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
-
- Old Hand
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:32 pm
- Location: sheffield
#382
i've been very much enjoying a record by 'green on red' called 'no free lunch' ; seems to fit in with the scene here
well at least graham won't get bored as there'll always be more things to try !
well at least graham won't get bored as there'll always be more things to try !
#383
Richard, what did you say the noise was last night?
Microphonics from the mains or something?
Been planning the rebuild, what are the quietest resistors? Just wondered if it was worth splashing out on tantalums or something just for the first stage and use metal films for the rest.
I also thought about using tants in the first stage, metal films for the second stage and maybe takman carbons for the output, just to avoid any possible over brightness from using all metal films. It sounds quite good at the moment but i have previously had over bright treble issues in my system in the past.
I only want to mess with resistors once, so whatever R's i use for the rebuild will stay put forever (probably ) but i know alot of people consider boutique resistors to be audio foolery .
Microphonics from the mains or something?
Been planning the rebuild, what are the quietest resistors? Just wondered if it was worth splashing out on tantalums or something just for the first stage and use metal films for the rest.
I also thought about using tants in the first stage, metal films for the second stage and maybe takman carbons for the output, just to avoid any possible over brightness from using all metal films. It sounds quite good at the moment but i have previously had over bright treble issues in my system in the past.
I only want to mess with resistors once, so whatever R's i use for the rebuild will stay put forever (probably ) but i know alot of people consider boutique resistors to be audio foolery .
#384
Bulk foil, though only worth considering for the cartridge load Rwhat are the quietest resistors
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20189
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#386
I think he's impressedGraeme wrote:coolio
Sorry should have said the 10k res you put in is also the V-drop resistor for the zener(s).
Yes in the old days a zener was often used to make white noise, by making the supply volts right on the threshold of it's own breakdown voltage. Used to be able to buy a special one for doing just that.
So yes needs a reasonably large cap in parallel across it to shut it up. The 10uF you've already got will do that as Nick says.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#387
Excellent.
Ill order some decent diodes for the PSU at the same time.
Been searching some more, the vishay BMF arent cheap are they
Opinions vary so much about resistors but some good info in this thread
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/view ... t=tantalum
I wont worry too much about it, but ill make sure i can replace certain resistors reasonable easily in case i want to experiment later on.
Ill order some decent diodes for the PSU at the same time.
Been searching some more, the vishay BMF arent cheap are they
Opinions vary so much about resistors but some good info in this thread
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/view ... t=tantalum
I wont worry too much about it, but ill make sure i can replace certain resistors reasonable easily in case i want to experiment later on.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20189
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#388
I dunno, I'm using all 2W Kiwame carbons for my 1st stage except a couple of bog standard cheapo Rapid 0.5W carbon films for the grid stoppers, there's no noise that I'm aware of. The anode resistor is 100k Kiwame. So I'm guessing low noise is due to it's being greatly over-rated at 2W but only carrying 1mA-ish. ?Graeme wrote:Been planning the rebuild, what are the quietest resistors? Just wondered if it was worth splashing out on tantalums or something just for the first stage and use metal films for the rest.
<snip>
You can try tantalums but you might not like them, they do have their own kind of sound.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
#389
This bit mike,
'Yes in the old days a zener was often used to make white noise, by making the supply volts right on the threshold of it's own breakdown voltage. Used to be able to buy a special one for doing just that.'
Does that mean using a 230v zener to give a steady 230v from a 231v supply will make more noise than using a 230v zener to give 230v from a 240v supply?
I.E. should i aim for the zener to drop around 10v rather than using them to drop around 2v?
I may be reading your sentance wrong.
'Yes in the old days a zener was often used to make white noise, by making the supply volts right on the threshold of it's own breakdown voltage. Used to be able to buy a special one for doing just that.'
Does that mean using a 230v zener to give a steady 230v from a 231v supply will make more noise than using a 230v zener to give 230v from a 240v supply?
I.E. should i aim for the zener to drop around 10v rather than using them to drop around 2v?
I may be reading your sentance wrong.
- Mike H
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 20189
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:38 pm
- Location: The Fens
- Contact:
#390
I remember that thread!
And still nobody has answered my question about RS/Rapid's carbon comps
And still nobody has answered my question about RS/Rapid's carbon comps
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."